seanan_mcguire: (discount2)
[personal profile] seanan_mcguire
This is a topic that's been sitting in my rolling note file for a while, waiting both for the sting of the event that triggered it to fade, and for the actual event to recede far enough into the past that even a vague description wouldn't trigger a big red SPOILERS sign. So you know, it took more than two years. That's a long time, even for me.

I watch a lot of television, read a lot of books, and buy a lot of comics. I am a huge consumer of media of all types. And, like many consumers of media, I'm looking for characters I can relate to. For me, yes, that usually means the females* (although not always). And yeah, it bothers me that in a narrative with eight males and one female, it's frequently the female who will be the target of violence or killed off to make a point.

Now, I'm not saying that female characters should have a "get out of mortal injury free" card, nor that they should be immortal. But there's "everyone in this story gets the crap kicked out of them on a regular basis, it was Karen's turn," and then there's "mysteriously, every male character survives the explosion unscathed, again, but Karen is in the hospital, again." Or, even worse, "all the guys are fine, Karen's dead, meet Katie." Karen, in this scenario, was probably a replacement for Kelly, who replaced Kendra back in season one. And the beat rolls on.

I am not saying that all things must have absolute gender equality. Big Bang Theory was a primarily male cast for the first several seasons, and that was fine. H2O: Just Add Water was a primarily female cast for its entire run, and that was fine, too. Sometimes, there are situations where it makes sense for it to be mostly one gender or the other. But this is a "sometimes" thing, not a "four times out of five" thing. If there's no pressing reason for a character to be one gender or the other, why not try striking a balance? One of the only things that's ever disappointed me about Leverage is the way that the "evil doubles" of all the main characters have been male. Male thief, male hitter, male hacker, male mastermind. When your core cast is so well-balanced, why not make your Mirror Universe equally well-balanced?

(Yes, we have seen another female grifter, but as she was brought in to essentially be a replacement Sophie while Gina Bellman was pregnant, she's a bit of a different duck, and she wasn't brought in when they needed an alternate team. Which is too bad, because she's awesome.)

And now to the event that caused me to start thinking these things so critically:

Once upon a time there was a show, and it was made for me. It could not have been better tailored to my tastes if the producers had been bugging my phone. I loved it without reservation, even though the cast was almost purely male, and I defended it from accusations of misogyny. It was my show.

Time passed, and more female characters were introduced. They didn't become core cast, but that was okay; there were natural limits on the number of core cast members, and I was happy with the expanded universe. It made things more realistic. And then things started getting bad in that expanded universe. How could they make us, the viewers, understand how bad things were?

By killing all the female characters who had appeared in more than one episode, naturally. And by doing it in a way that was meant to be "heroic," but involved them failing to navigate a scenario that left the male characters entirely untouched.

I cried until I was sick after that episode. I turned off the show. I never went back. Literally never; I haven't watched so much as a preview since that narrative decision was made. Was I overreacting? Maybe. But there is so much media out there these days, so many stories, that once you make me cry for reasons that are not "this is so moving and tragic," but are instead, "this is so unfair and infuriating," we're over, you and I.

And that, right there, is when a story loses me. When they use the female characters as a shortcut to emotional anguish; when they kill or maim the women because that's easier than setting up a genuinely and realistically painful scenario. Especially since we almost always start out with a severe gender imbalance in genre or action shows, and that means that killing the token woman can leave us with an all-male cast.

Bones, which I adore, has a rotating cast of interns, only one of whom is female. When they had to kill an intern last season, it wasn't her. I cried like a baby over the death they chose; the intern they killed was my second favorite among the available choices. But it didn't make me angry the way it would have if they'd chosen Daisy. Why? Because killing the woman is so often viewed as the "cheap and easy" choice that I wouldn't have been able to focus on the tragedy through my anger.

Again, I am not saying "never kill the woman." Veronica Mars is one of my favorite shows ever, and they started off by killing Lilly Kane. NCIS, which I also adore, killed off a central female character very early in their run. But both shows killed their characters in a way that made sense for the show, and did not reduce her to an emotional red stamp. "We need this to hurt, so kill the girl." You need to kill the character, not "kill the girl." If you can do that, you'll keep me. If you can't, you'll lose me. And I am not the only one you'll lose.

I find it a little fascinating that women make up such a large percentage of the audience for these stories, but we're still the ones who die when the monster comes, to prove that the threat is real. I'd like to see it change.

And I still miss Lilly.

(*I don't say "women" because I watch a lot of science fiction, and a lot of cartoons and teen dramas. So "girls" is often accurate, as is "blue lizard people of the egg-laying gender.")
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Date: 2012-02-01 05:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] natmerc.livejournal.com
Yes. So very yes.

I think I know what show and they lost me right then too. Haven't watched another ep. I can take character deaths (male or female), but not when it's solely to induce a raging case of manpain. Especially hate it where the first time you see a new female character is when she's introduced as the girlfriend/wife in the EXACT episode where they get her beaten up/killed.

Date: 2012-02-01 05:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
You're probably right about which show it was. I still cringe when people tell me how they've started watching the series from the beginning, because I was very public about my love, and not so public when the show lost me.

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Date: 2012-02-01 05:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolfsilveroak.livejournal.com
NCIS, which I also adore, killed off a central female character very early in their run

As much as I adore Ziva, I still miss Kate sometimes.}:/

Date: 2012-02-01 05:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Me, too.

Although I love what that actress is doing on Rizzoli and Isles.

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Date: 2012-02-01 05:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] branna.livejournal.com
Yes, this. It is becoming more and more true for me as time goes on, that when writers "red-shirt" or "refrigerate" the female characters as emotional shorthand, I'm gone. (Also, when it is media taken from book canon, and the best canon female character is a) rewritten to be less powerful and interesting and b) killed off, then I'm gone before I ever get there).

However, I have to admit for me, Big Bang Theory is not one of those shows where the male-centered casting was even remotely OK. In fact, the show's handling of women broke it for me from day one despite the fact that I hugely respect the college who consults for the show.

Date: 2012-02-01 05:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
They've gotten an awful lot better as time went on, because the circle of characters has expanded. They're up to three central female characters, contrasting to the four central male characters. This makes me so happy you don't even know. But yeah; the lack of female scientists early in was problematic for me, too. I just needed an example where they at least explained it in the context of the story.

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Date: 2012-02-01 05:10 pm (UTC)
ext_59934: (B5 women)
From: [identity profile] taldragon.livejournal.com
i had problems with the new Sherlock (BBC) version of Irene Adler because she was reduced to being someone else's puppet :(

the older i get, the more sensitive i am to the fate/role of the female characters in my media. (which is probably why i love Fringe and Being Human and Babylon 5 and Farscape. when Farscape killed off one of their main female characters - well, two actually - it didnt feel gratuitious or forced).

Edited Date: 2012-02-01 05:10 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-02-01 05:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
I can totally see that. I don't have a huge attachment to Holmes canon, so it didn't bother me as much, but it's bothered a lot of my friends.

And agreed on Fringe. I've had some issues with Being Human, but they're getting a bit better.

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Date: 2012-02-01 05:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_the_firedancer/
Eeeeugh. I was trying to think about which show you meant - and realised to my horror that just off've the top of my head I could think of several that fit the bill. I don't think it matters which show exactly - it's the fact that these narrative choices basically never get made in the reversed gender scenario.

Date: 2012-02-01 05:17 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-02-01 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aircrash.livejournal.com
wish this post had a like button. i'd be all over that.

Date: 2012-02-01 05:22 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2012-02-01 05:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Mmmmmmmmmmmm yeah.

I never went back.

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Date: 2012-02-01 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] misachan.livejournal.com
I'm 99% sure I know which show you mean.:( I didn't cry but I did scream "Oh, Goddammit show!"reaction at my TV. I think what softened the blow for me is that virtually ALL recurring characters die on that show (off the top of my head I can think of two who haven't died at least once, and don't quote me on that), and that the whole sequence of events that led to the deaths was kicked off by the female character outright saving the male character (which is problematic itself, of course.)

I don't know. It hurt but didn't wreck me the way, say, Lian Harper getting fridged did (I don't want to read another word by Robinson, and you're talking to someone who LOVED Starman.) I think I just have less tolerance for it in comics becuase it just won't go away. (The Legion of Kyle's Dead Girlfriends is long standing gallows humor in my house.)

Date: 2012-02-01 05:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Yeah, everybody dies, which helps. But only the women stay dead and are instantly forgotten, which doesn't. The second that happened, I was done.

Date: 2012-02-01 05:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] herewiss13.livejournal.com
Well now I'm really curious because, until the comments, I'd figured you were talking about Supernatural (which I don't watch because the first season was just too damn scary (I made it up to the synopsis of the haunted asylum and had to bail, which I've regretted)). Apparently this just demonstrates how far behind the fandom curve I am. ;-)

...and without disagreeing with your premises at all, I would point out that the hitter Elliot faced in the "Two Live Crew Job" was a woman (Israeli ex-Mossad) and I think we all agree she ought to come back someday. I'm tempted to comment on John Rodgers blog about why all the "Crime World" counterparts (aside from Tara) seem to be men. Certainly they switch genders when it comes to the Villian fairly regularly. Hmmm...now I'm tempted to make a chart (must! resist!)

Date: 2012-02-01 05:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
I remember her, and she was awesome. But she's not the one they brought in for the "Crime World" showdown. Instead, they went with another dude. I wanted at least one girl on that alternate team, you know?

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Date: 2012-02-01 05:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] herefox.livejournal.com
Suddenly something that had been puzzling me about your television watching becomes clear. I'm currently watching that season and saw that episode a few weeks ago. I thought it was unnecessary as well though it wasn't a deal breaker for me. I think it was redeemed slightly, for me anyway, when one of the characters had been repeatedly noted to not really being suited for the life she was trying to lead...but it would have been more interesting, more heart wrenching and more appropriate if only that one died.

Date: 2012-02-01 05:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
It is perhaps true that I was overly attached to Jo.

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Date: 2012-02-01 06:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belle-noiseuse.livejournal.com
Oh yeah. I used to just not watch any series that wasn't already over because of this very thing—I didn't want to get invested in a show and be excited about it only to be betrayed. Being able to read synopses for every season helped assuage that anxiety a lot. (Another thing I do not want to watch is rape-related plot arcs where the point is how dude characters react to violence against lady characters, which is so shockingly common I cannot even. It's awful to stumble into that kind of thing unprepared for it.)

Date: 2012-02-01 06:03 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2012-02-01 06:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maverick-weirdo.livejournal.com
When they had to kill an intern last season, it wasn't her. I cried like a baby over the death they chose; the intern they killed was my second favorite among the available choices

The reason they "chose" to kill that intern was so the actor could go work on Alphas

Date: 2012-02-01 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
I'm aware. But if they wanted a death for a death's sake, they could just as easily have gone for Daisy.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:05 pm (UTC)
ext_3743: (Scott Pilgrim SNAP (agirlnextdoor))
From: [identity profile] umadoshi.livejournal.com
I'm pretty sure I know what show you mean (esp. after going through the comments), and it lost me at the exact same place.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
I just...no.

I couldn't deal. No.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gehayi.livejournal.com
I don't know which show you were talking about--and then I realized that that was what was bothering me. I can't identify the show because there are so many shows like that. (And films, too.)

I don't know what I can do about it...but I am so damned sick of women/girls/females of non-human or alien species being disposable. I'm also damned sick of wives or girlfriends dying horribly to give her husband or boyfriend a reason to go after the villains/monsters/evil aliens/whatever. I'm tired of HER death only being important because--or if--it fuels HIS pain.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
I am right there with you.

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Date: 2012-02-01 06:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kiarasayre.livejournal.com
Agreed, so hard. I missed the beginning of that season due to studying abroad, and kept meaning to get caught up...until I heard about that. Once it became obvious that that show had no interest in fixing its problematic aspects and didn't care that it was problematic, I was out.

The sidelining of female characters has been a dealbreaker for me for a lot of fandoms, actually. A few months after the Star Trek reboot came out, I found myself looking at a picture of the cast and going, wait a minute, and the enthusiasm never came back. (And then I went and watched some episodes of Samantha Carter blowing up a sun to make myself feel better.)

I also have to say that, at least in my experience, "kids' shows" are much better about this, and are often awesome. As any good nerdy significantly-older sister should, I've been trying to encourage my little sister's tastes in awesome female characters, and it's been surprisingly easy.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Agreed. My one issue with Phineas and Ferb is that until Isabella and the Fireside Girls got more involved, they had no really solid female characters, and again, they've addressed that. Kid shows are way more balanced a lot of the time, unless they have the Smurfette issue going on.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cirakaite.livejournal.com
This, totally. I gave up on Supernatural right about when they decided that women just weren't having around. Not when they could have ~~Castiel~~ instead.

With Leverage, I liked the Jeri Ryan character- they brought her back in the latest season too, just not for as an additional team.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
OMG I love the Castiel fans but yeah. Bringing him in and icing Anna because only guys can be cool and on the show? NO NO NO NO. And also no.

Grr.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] effervescent.livejournal.com
I was pretty sure I knew which show you were going to be talking about even before I finished reading the entry and the comments.

I left too, and never went back. Partly because watching hurt too much, but also because of fandom's reaction - but that's a whole other story.

Sometimes it's hard to like fantasy and action, because it lends itself so well to gender imbalance and sexism.

Also, Kate!!! I still miss her. But I <3 Abby and Ziva.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Fandom's reaction made me see red with rage.

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Date: 2012-02-01 06:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/la_marquise_de_/
I hate this trope, I really do. I find it offensice and abusive and sexist. We are long overdue for it to go away, yet it won't. Mutilation of our bodies and emotions and lives remain shorthand for 'sad', 'meaningful' etc.

Date: 2012-02-01 06:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
It makes me so mad.

Totally on a tangent:

Date: 2012-02-01 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orlacarey.livejournal.com
Wait what? Lily Kane was a character on Veronica Mars? Since The Ghost of Lily Kane is one of my favorite songs I now feel the need to hunt down the series

Date: 2012-02-01 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
The first season's big mystery was "who killed Lilly Kane?" They start the show after her death, and still manage to make her a nuanced and compelling character.

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Date: 2012-02-01 06:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] stormsdotter.livejournal.com
I didn't watch much television until I got hit with rheumatoid arthritis this summer. I've lived with mild ADHD all my like, and television bores me because it's a passive activity. Then I started having massive amounts of pain, mostly in my hands, and television and NetFlix On Demand becuase this wonderful distraction.

By the way, I watched all of Glee during the worst two days of this. THANK YOU for recommending the show!!

I have heard your complaints in the past. I haven't experienced them myself yet, but my favorite shows are Gargoyles and Avatar. (Animation is fun, I visually analyze the drawings and it keeps my mind busy.) I can say I have dropped authors and books series that have jumped the dragon, and about half the time it's becuase the girls become Mary Sues.

Date: 2012-02-01 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Remember that a female character can't be a Mary Sue in her own story. Overly idealized, yes, but not a Mary Sue. She doesn't warp the story if she defines it.

Date: 2012-02-01 07:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kwhiteshark.livejournal.com
I knew which show you were talking about even before the comments confirmed it. I was genuinely upset at those deaths, but I'd grown used to the show killing off certain characters. If it eases the sting at all, both of them pop up again, though not in the same episode. I thought the way that they were both brought back were pretty cool, imo. Though sadly not for good. Do I still miss those characters? Hell yes! Ellen in particular because she was so bad ass.
I've never stopped watching the show, because I still love it and I still enjoy it, despite the penchant for killing off the female characters. It makes me laugh and has brought me to tears many times over, but I still adore it. I'm sure I'm in the minority on that. ^_^

Date: 2012-02-01 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
I'm glad you can still enjoy it. You are a stronger soul than I.

Date: 2012-02-01 07:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gwisteria.livejournal.com
I am so sorry one of the perils of reading my guilty pleasure that is your live journal at work ( I run a in home daycare) is that if I walk away suddenly to address one tiny person concerns another runs and starts typing ....I never have seen supernatural but I agree with your assessment although I guess I have gotten somewhat used to it from being crushed when Tara died on Buffy. I was so upset I couldn't deal with the series after that until I could rent them and watch years later.

Date: 2012-02-01 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Ha! Okay, that is AWESOME, and I am choosing to interpret your first comment as a very small person agreeing with the overall thesis of this post. Because that is hysterical.

Agreed, re: Tara.

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Date: 2012-02-01 07:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] klwilliams.livejournal.com
After reading "Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" I went on a mystery reading kick, and so many of them are just what you describe. For Taylor it made sense, but the rest are exactly what you said. I want to read about the guy killing men who remind him of his father, or the woman killing men exactly like her cruel older brother. Something different, please.

Date: 2012-02-01 07:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
Need an origin story? Kill a girl! It's fun and easy!

Assholes.

Date: 2012-02-01 07:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] renshai.livejournal.com
I watched the first season of Supernatural intently, lost track of it when life (and university) ganged up on me, and was thinking of going back to it because tumblr as a collective have been raving about Castiel and Gabriel.

But I'm not sure I really want to put up with the rotating carousel of disposable female characters.

(I know exactly what you mean, though - DC comics and I have had several fallings-out over pretty much the same thing.)

Date: 2012-02-02 02:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com
I am very glad I never became a DC girl. Marvel is slightly better. Only slightly, but still.
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