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seanan_mcguireSo a few days ago, I posted a relative rarity—a song about a Toby book—and stated that I don't write or post many of these, on account of the inevitability of spoilers. A lot of people commented on how much they enjoyed the lyrics, which was lovely. Several of them then told me either a) that the song wasn't what they would consider a spoiler, b) that the statute of limitations was up, or c) that they liked spoilers. These are all absolutely valid perspectives, and I was glad to hear them.
And yet, as is always the danger, they got me thinking.
My position on spoilers for my own work is that, as the author, I have to be scrupulously careful, both because it's not fair of me to take the experience of reading something for the first time away from someone, and because sometimes, I can spoil things which haven't happened yet, which means that sometimes, my spoilers can change. Merav was one of my first Machete Squad members. She and I have talked through at least three different iterations of the timeline, including characters who wound up never existing, and excluding characters who wound up being very important. So there are times when she'll say "but you can't do _____, it contradicts _____," and _____ is something that not only hasn't happened yet, it's never going to happen. I didn't mean to confuse her, it just happened.
There's also the question of authorial deceit. A few years ago, people in the fandom of a TV show I watched—and I honestly don't remember which show it was, that's sort of beside the point—were furious because, at the end of the season, what happened didn't match the spoilers they'd received from the showrunner at the start of the season. He had lied to them. He had intentionally deceived them. And oh, were they pissed. But as a writer, I can see where maybe he didn't lie. Stories twist and change. Characters I thought would be totally essential disappear, and new characters wander onto the scene. When I told Jennifer how Sparrow Hill Road was going to play out, I wasn't lying, even though things didn't end that way. The story changed in my hands. I don't ever want my readers to feel like I lied to them because of spoilers. I try to play fair, and that's important to me.
Some people find that spoilers enhance their enjoyment of the work. I know that sometimes, when I'm really excited about something, or really anxious about it, I'll seek out spoilers just to brace myself better. I'm currently looking for anything that can confirm certain upcoming X-Men storylines. There's a key phrase there: "seek out spoilers."
When I get accidentally spoiled for something, I am pissed, and depending on the magnitude of the spoiler, I may cross the work off my list of things to do. I've never seen The Sixth Sense because of a careless spoiler. I decided not to see Serenity when every major event and plot twist of the movie was spoiled by enthusiastic fans. I think you should absolutely have the freedom to choose to be spoiled, but I don't think I should be spoiling people without warning them, or without their consent.
Sometimes knowing a thing is coming really does enhance the story, or at least change it. Writing stories about Jonathan and Frances Healy is oddly bittersweet for me, because I know how they both die—and that isn't a spoiler, since they're Verity's great-grandparents, and cryptozoology isn't a career that comes with a guarantee of a long life. It's not a spoiler to say that Alice and Thomas will eventually get married, that Rose dies alone by the side of the road, or that science accidentally makes zombies. These are background statements, and even if I later go back and write stories set before those things happened, they don't turn into spoilers.
I wish I loved John and Fran a little less. It would make what's coming a lot less hard.
I guess what it comes down to is that I don't want to spoil the experience of the person who doesn't like spoilers, and that means maintaining a strict policy of self-censorship outside of venues where I've posted thorough spoiler warnings. It also means that occasionally, if something is very new or the spoiler is very large, I may screen or remove comments containing spoilers from posts that aren't marked "spoilers here." That way, everyone gets a little closer to what they want, and life is good.
Make sense?
And yet, as is always the danger, they got me thinking.
My position on spoilers for my own work is that, as the author, I have to be scrupulously careful, both because it's not fair of me to take the experience of reading something for the first time away from someone, and because sometimes, I can spoil things which haven't happened yet, which means that sometimes, my spoilers can change. Merav was one of my first Machete Squad members. She and I have talked through at least three different iterations of the timeline, including characters who wound up never existing, and excluding characters who wound up being very important. So there are times when she'll say "but you can't do _____, it contradicts _____," and _____ is something that not only hasn't happened yet, it's never going to happen. I didn't mean to confuse her, it just happened.
There's also the question of authorial deceit. A few years ago, people in the fandom of a TV show I watched—and I honestly don't remember which show it was, that's sort of beside the point—were furious because, at the end of the season, what happened didn't match the spoilers they'd received from the showrunner at the start of the season. He had lied to them. He had intentionally deceived them. And oh, were they pissed. But as a writer, I can see where maybe he didn't lie. Stories twist and change. Characters I thought would be totally essential disappear, and new characters wander onto the scene. When I told Jennifer how Sparrow Hill Road was going to play out, I wasn't lying, even though things didn't end that way. The story changed in my hands. I don't ever want my readers to feel like I lied to them because of spoilers. I try to play fair, and that's important to me.
Some people find that spoilers enhance their enjoyment of the work. I know that sometimes, when I'm really excited about something, or really anxious about it, I'll seek out spoilers just to brace myself better. I'm currently looking for anything that can confirm certain upcoming X-Men storylines. There's a key phrase there: "seek out spoilers."
When I get accidentally spoiled for something, I am pissed, and depending on the magnitude of the spoiler, I may cross the work off my list of things to do. I've never seen The Sixth Sense because of a careless spoiler. I decided not to see Serenity when every major event and plot twist of the movie was spoiled by enthusiastic fans. I think you should absolutely have the freedom to choose to be spoiled, but I don't think I should be spoiling people without warning them, or without their consent.
Sometimes knowing a thing is coming really does enhance the story, or at least change it. Writing stories about Jonathan and Frances Healy is oddly bittersweet for me, because I know how they both die—and that isn't a spoiler, since they're Verity's great-grandparents, and cryptozoology isn't a career that comes with a guarantee of a long life. It's not a spoiler to say that Alice and Thomas will eventually get married, that Rose dies alone by the side of the road, or that science accidentally makes zombies. These are background statements, and even if I later go back and write stories set before those things happened, they don't turn into spoilers.
I wish I loved John and Fran a little less. It would make what's coming a lot less hard.
I guess what it comes down to is that I don't want to spoil the experience of the person who doesn't like spoilers, and that means maintaining a strict policy of self-censorship outside of venues where I've posted thorough spoiler warnings. It also means that occasionally, if something is very new or the spoiler is very large, I may screen or remove comments containing spoilers from posts that aren't marked "spoilers here." That way, everyone gets a little closer to what they want, and life is good.
Make sense?
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no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 04:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 04:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 04:32 pm (UTC)As I said on the other post, I think the song wouldn't have been a spoiler *for me* because hi, oblivious girl here. (I can't be sure, since I read the scene before the song, of course.) But that's not true of everyone, and I know that I hate it like fire when someone *does* manage to spoiler something for me.
The Sixth Sense wasn't spoilered for me...and I'm not sure I could have watched it through if it had been. I actually find it re-watch-able knowing the ending, but I think it would have felt pointless to watch it had I known JUST the ending (without also knowing, hey, I want to go back and see what's going on in X scene, then...).
I've never watched Princess Mononoke through because of that exact effect - someone told me one thing they swore wasn't a spoiler for what they considered the ending, but it told me what type of story it was, what to expect, etc., to such a degree that I simply couldn't bond with the characters or worry about the plot. (Including how what they considered the ending would have to go, roughly.) I got *bored* trying to watch it. Which is a double pity because based on the spoiler and my extrapolations, it's the sort of movie I would have very much enjoyed! (And I bounced the spoiler and my reaction off a friend who had watched it without such a spoiler, in case she could assure me that no, it wasn't as big as I thought it was. I trust her enough that I think that might have let me watch the movie to find what hadn't been spoiled. She could not, and in fact sputtered for a while at what had been said.)
Had your song spoiled the thing it was about for me, it wouldn't have had the same dramatic effect, because it wouldn't have given the shape of the book to me - and the first few chapters would have shown me that. But it would have taken a very powerful scene (maybe two, if I was good enough to interpolate) and had me going "uh, yeah, uh huh" instead of being gobsmacked by it. If I assume there's someone out there more perceptive than I am, but with the same likely reaction, then you have saved that person a fair degree of sadness by putting the nice spoiler warnings all over the song.
And while I admit it'd be fun to hear things-that-never-were...only after the fact and shared for amusement. Waiting for things-that-never-will-be to drop is better than being spoiled for things-that-are, in my book (not for everyone, I bet!), but it's still not fun.
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Date: 2011-11-10 02:52 am (UTC)But then I'd watch a retrospective of Miyazake napkin drawings. ^_^
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Date: 2011-11-09 04:32 pm (UTC)Then again, I also learned to take my coffee black almost from the start - because it was too much work to tell anyone else how to doctor it to satisfaction with any success. Accidents and best intentions - gotta love 'em. Unless there is an allergy involved, it's a good practice to yield. More time to enjoy the good stuff of spending time sharing a hot beverage and conversation, sez I.
What I don't get is the seething malice people attribute to being robbed of a storyline they were leaked, alluded to, spoiled - chose the words - like there was some ownership or something.
I'm still angry about the way Quantum Leap ended, but it's because it was a lazy-ass dumb way, worst way ever way to do it. (And the one I feared they would take from the beginning.) Did I know about it ahead of time? Sure. People went dumpster-diving for that information. (Ew.) But to attribute malice to it? The what? I'm not entitled to have it my way, or the way I would have liked it. (And while I still daydream of the movie I'd love to write, the reality is it's not going to happen. That show closed not because it got bad, but because the family who created it broke apart ala fission and it's not coming back together again, ever.)
I do not believe ever that you would be that mean. (This is one of the reasons I love that pretty pretty brain of yours.) Your perspective and role is also very different from mine as the reader of the finished product, you demonstrate awareness of this and your responsibility to it. And I think you will do your very best to stick to doing exactly what you said you will do, outlined above.
If it doesn't immediately feel like it, should something slip? I can remember. You're not mean. And that kinda is that.
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Date: 2011-11-12 01:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 04:36 pm (UTC)My point in the other post was that you should also have the freedom to write and post songs or whatever which do contain spoilers, in some place. Possibly, as some authors do, you could have some communities specifically for spoilerific posts (possibly one per series), this would not only allow you to post things which may be spoilers but also allow other readers to do so. And any reader who doesn't want to see spoilers can know to avoid those areas (if they do look there and get 'spoiled' then no one will have any sympathy for them). Just as I don't look at the Doctor Who spoiler and speculation communities.
'Spoilers' about things which may not happen, I think, just need an extra disclaimer on the lines of "This is what I think at the moment, but it may not turn out like that" to make it clear that you're not promising anything. For instance, some authors post 'snippets' (often one sentence) from a book they are writing, those snippets may in fact never be in the final book but it is understood that they are glimpses into the writing process not a cast-iron promise.
"It's not a spoiler to say that Alice and Thomas will eventually get married"
That is too a spoiler! I didn't know that your cats were even dating! *g*
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Date: 2011-11-09 07:26 pm (UTC)Oh gods, the world ends not with a bang but with ALL THE FLUFFINESS.
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Date: 2011-11-12 01:50 am (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2011-11-09 04:50 pm (UTC)Thank you.
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Date: 2011-11-09 04:56 pm (UTC)I was very glad not to have been spoiled for your Grant books. I would've been a very angry reader. Or worse, when I hear spoilers for the end of books, I tend to just blow off reading it at all. WHat is the point, my brain says.
So yeah - I appreciate the effort it takes not to spoil, but I also put my best effort not to put myself where I can be. :)
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Date: 2011-11-12 01:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 04:58 pm (UTC)To be fair with the song, if you hadn't said it was a Toby song I probably wouldn't have connected it until I actually got to that part and sat bolt upright going, 'That's what that song is about!' I do appreciate the care just in case though.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 05:16 pm (UTC)(Also I admit the thing the song spoiled was, through One Salt Sea, slowly taking form in the back of my head, and, when it was confirmed, I went 'I thought so' and let the details fill in on what had been a pretty solid outline.)
Also, I feel you about the whole 'authorial deceit' thing. For a while, I did a webcomic and talked to friends about what I was planning. And, as things go, and I matured as a writer, my ideas changed. And at least one friend would harp on me about that, never seeming to get that, for me, it didn't count as set in stone until I posted it. And, hell, since I never finished the story, I might let it change more and try to retell it.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 05:29 pm (UTC)Thank you thank you. Personally, I hate spoilers. I never look at the end of a book to see how it ends. I won't talk to people who want to tell the end of movies or the final outcome of a tv show. I just don't want to know. That said, I do recognize the need for fans to discuss. I think having a spoiler page or big SPOILER warnings on things is a nice idea. That gives those who simply MUST "spill the beans" an opportunity to do so without bugging the rest of us. I belong to an email group for some authors whose books are often published in eARC form months before the print book hits the streets. The policy there is that any discussion of a new book must take place on the Live Journal spoiler page or be clearly marked as a spoiler in the subject line. That way, we are all warned and can skip the offending emails/posts.
FWIW, I didn't find the song to be that much of a spoiler, and if it hadn't been identified as relating to Toby, I would never have connected it. But for picky people, I think the Statute of Limitations on spoilers lasts somewhere between 3 and 6 months after publication.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 05:53 pm (UTC)I fear for us.
<3
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 05:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-12 02:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 06:10 pm (UTC)On that note, I had somebody accidentally spoiler a major plot point of The Others the very day I watched it, and I still was blindsided because I wasn't paying attention. So that worked out okay.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 06:31 pm (UTC)http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:09 am (UTC)(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 06:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-12 02:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 08:10 pm (UTC)I hate being spoiled accidentally. I try to avoid being spoiled, but I remember one thing very clearly; while I was waiting to see the second episode of Supernatural's 4th season, I thought I might as well see what my updated friendslist looked like. And there was a reaction in the vein of "Oh Sam, what did you do?" I commented to the poster and informed her I thought she was inconsiderate, and also I made a post where I aimed to remind people that lj-cuts could be a good thing on occasion, albeit in a more enraged fashion. And since then, the poster in question hasn't engaged me in conversation other than to say that in her eyes it wasn't a spoiler at all. Which... I mean, really? Honestly?
So I might as well remove her, but I try to comment and explain to people why we have to part terms, and I haven't communicated with her since then, so I suppose I might as well. I just find it impolite to remove people with no explanation, and I'm sure that if she even remembers it she thought I was unreasonable. IIRC, she wrote that in reply; I don't even want to check that post of hers.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:29 am (UTC)I'm sorry people are sometimes less flexible.
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Date: 2011-11-09 08:16 pm (UTC)So my policy when it comes to spoilers for stuff that is not "out" yet had always been that I would only confirm or deny things that people had figured out on their own from contextual clues and were driving me up a tree by going, please, please please please, am I right? and were swearing on their soul never to tell anyone while driving me up a tree.
But ever since I found out I had friends who were forgetful enough to admit or announce that they had received said information from me, now NOT EVEN THEN.
(I do like spoilers, unless they are for the pivotal thing that the whole plot is about, if that makes sense, and in that case I don't want them. Also in the case where I think something is likely to upset me I may want specific spoilers, but that's usually for movies and for authors who are not you. My favourite kinds of spoilers are little worldbuilding bits, though.)
So feel free to screen/delete if I ever let anything slip, I will absolutely not be upset, for I actively try not to do that.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 09:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-12 02:30 am (UTC)I am sorry.
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Date: 2011-11-09 09:13 pm (UTC)Yes, it makes sense. And I don't care how old a piece of work is, if spoilers aren't marked as such, KELLY SMASH. So long as there is sufficient time for me to look away from what I'm reading after someone marks spoiler ahoy! I'm all good.
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Date: 2011-11-12 02:30 am (UTC)OMG yes.
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Date: 2011-11-09 09:38 pm (UTC)Though it is true that that first read through an unfamiliar book is different than the re-readings.
But enough people do care, that the default should be to avoid spoilers, or at least label them so those that care can avoid them.
So you are very civilized.
I sometimes like the tiny, not very revealing, detail of upcoming stuff.
Appetizers!
But fake-out spoilers?
Ugh.
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Date: 2011-11-14 04:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 09:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-14 04:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 09:49 pm (UTC)That being said, I'll often seek out spoilers for things I have no intention of reading or watching -- The Village, say. But not pass them on.
I sort of think that there's a statute of limitations, though. I've posted discussions of On The Beach, Animal Farm, A Canticle For Leibowitz, The Caine Mutiny, and the like, putting in a warning but not being particularly careful. If a work is older than I am, and I'm talking to people my age and taste, and the details are in the culture anyway... That is, one already knows, going in, that it doesn't turn out well for Lenny at all.
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Date: 2011-11-14 04:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 10:35 pm (UTC)On the other hand, don't let knowing the twist stop you from seeing The Sixth Sense. People carry on and on about the twist, but there's a lot more going on than just that, ncluding a set of fine performances.
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Date: 2011-11-14 04:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-09 11:16 pm (UTC)I was taught in primary school to read the first few paragraphs and last few paragraphs of a book to see if it was one I'd like to read. Unfortunately, this has left me with the habit, in adult life of being half way through a book of flipping to the end to see what happens. Oh yup - self inflicted spoilers. Its not so easy to do this on my Kindle, or to flip ahead a few pages (another bad habit) and thus I read in a different way.
Conversely, this has also taught me that it is the story as its being told that is important, and somehow I've learned to switch off the spoilers.
I also find that I'll read a paper book more slowly, if I've had that peek - than an e-book that I'll rush through to discover what happens.
The process fascinates me.
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Date: 2011-11-10 02:01 am (UTC)Now with the Kindle, I find I don't do that-even though chapter navigation allows me to do that. Personally though, I find with certain authors I rush through about the same whether it is tree or e-book.
It is why I am saving 11/23/63 for the weekend. If I tried reading it when it was downloaded to my Kindle Tuesday at midnight, I would never have gotten to sleep last night. 866 pages? I plan on starting Friday night when I get home from work. I figure I will finish sometime around noon on Saturday and then I can crash.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2011-11-10 01:28 am (UTC)But I admit I'm weird that way.
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Date: 2011-11-18 03:33 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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