On spoilers.

[seanan_mcguire]

So Chuck Wendig posted his thoughts on spoilers recently. I agree with many of them. There are entire media empires I have chosen to have no truck with because they were spoiled for me so thoroughly before I could start embracing them, as often through the intent of the people doing the spoiling as by accident. There is a whole subculture on Tumblr dedicated to bootlegging new movies the day they hit theaters, so that the very first spoiler-laden animated .gifs can be created. It can get really, really frustrating. While I understand the joy of having an open and enthusiastic discussion of a thing you love, part of me goes "not everyone can go to every opening night, watch every show the second it airs, read every book in ARC form three months before publication." It's just not possible, and in those cases, spoilers can steal a lot of the joy in enjoying a piece of media.

(Not for everyone, naturally. I know people who adore spoilers, and find them an exciting roadmap to what's ahead. I am just as likely to go "welp, that was the greatest hits version of the story, let's go enjoy something new.")

But saying "spoilers are bad" and "spoilers are wrong" seems very...I don't know, privileged? At least to me. I have friends who cannot watch rape. Cannot watch any threat of sexual violence. Cannot handle the use of date rape drugs or other such devices in fiction. I know people who are so severely afraid of spiders that even spiders in movies are not safe for them, or who can't deal with certain forms of bodily harm (eyeballs, sure, but no fingers, no teeth...). Most, if not all, of these people have really good reasons for their fears, and if they don't go around wearing shirts that list them off for your comprehension and enlightenment, that's because it's nobody else's business.

So they seek out spoilers. They look for them everywhere, because a little loss of surprise is worth it for the comfort of knowing a piece of media is safe. I was lucky enough to see Thor 2 early (I love you, Disneyland Annual Pass), and while I refused, for the most part, to be a source of spoilers, one person asked me a very basic "this thing will be triggery for me, does this thing happen" question, and got an answer. Because my desire not to put spoilers out into the world is not stronger than someone else's need for mental peace. I knew why she was asking. Refusing to answer at that point would have been policing someone else's choices, and saying I knew what she needed better than she did.

I will absolutely roll with "involuntary spoilers are bad": I don't want to get spoiled for everything in the universe the second I turn on my computer in the morning. I will roll with "there is a statute of limitations," and while we haven't all agreed on what it is, I stop getting grumpy after a week or so for minor things (it takes longer for big, shocking, "this changes everything" revelations). But we have to remember that for some people, spoilers are safety and self-defense. Spoilers are what makes it possible for them to enjoy media, just like everybody else.

Sometimes, providing spoilers is the only kind thing to do.

Comments

[autographedcat.livejournal.com]

I strongly believe (and have written about extensively (http://www.autographedcat.com/2013/06/03/so-please-stop-explaining-dont-tell-me-cause-it-hurts/)) that spoilers are primarily a question of manners.

In the case you cite, you prioritise the general courtesy of "don't ruin the surprise for someone who doesn't want surprises" lower than the *specific* courtesy of "don't let your friend walk into a known trigger". And that's *entirely* appropriate, when you view it through the lens of etiquette.

[seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com]

<3

[codevixen.livejournal.com]

I was pretty alarmed when I watched "Hemlock Grove" because of triggering reasons. I myself don't have those kinds of triggers, and it is labeled horror so I expected the violence, gore, nudity and sex, but there was absolutely no warning for the incest and rape scenes. I was left wondering what people who have those triggers can even *do* to find out what they can and can't watch comfortably.

[seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com]

Mostly, ask trusted friends, and have people who understand that sometimes, you're just gonna get up and flee the room if there was no safe source for spoilers.

[dragonsong.livejournal.com]

I can say from hanging out on Tumblr that I've seen 99% of Supernatural through gifs alone. Watching the series hasn't been so much a discovery of the story as a discovery of, "Oh so THAT'S where that gifset came from." I'm still sitting around 3 seasons behind because there's not that much that's new to me. I was spoiled for season 9 drama about 30 minutes after the east coast episode. Shit, I was essentially spoiled by the ACTORS on Twitter.

Part of me wonders if there's some kind of divide based on your longevity as an internet denizen. The people I know who've been around forever tend to have a more rigorous spoiler filter, either using cut tags or other announcements. At least in my internet neighborhood (barring Tumblr, which is just spoilerville), the people who tend to post the most spoilers are random relatives or young cousins, neither of which grew up with any kind of ingrained internet manners. Maybe it's similar to how vigilant people are with trigger warnings, those of us who've been around a while see them as necessary kindness, while newcomers may see them as just PC silliness.

[dewline.livejournal.com]

There is a truth in this.

[jessie-c.livejournal.com]

So much this! There's a huge difference between revealing plot points just because you can and being empathetic to someone's triggers and therefore warning them about that particular triggering event in the plot. If it spoils the storyline you can warn them that it will before telling them but it would be the height of discourtesy not to warn them just to save the surprising plot twist.

[beccastareyes]

I like that. I've also been known to ask 'do you want spoilers?', even if I don't know the specific person's triggers. Because it puts the decision on the person who might be harmed or annoyed by it: a few of my friends don't have specific triggers, but don't care about spoilers. Others do, and I'm a better person to ask than the Internet*.

* Since a living, breathing person can be a lot more selective. If someone asks 'does this have a depressing or uplifting ending?' I can answer 'yes'/'no'/'sorta' and give as much or little detail as that person wants, without outlining the ending of the story unless requested.

[legoline.livejournal.com]

I generally do that as well. Even with people who aren't half obsessed with films and tv as I am. I just don't want to ruin things for them.

[herefox.livejournal.com]

I agree so much with this. I still remember how TIRED it made me that I had to read Harry Potter the instant it came out so that I wouldn't be spoiled on things...eventually it ruined my enjoyment of the series...which is sad since I probably would have still read them in the first two days or so that that they were released anyway!

I've definitely been known not to watch a movie or a series if something was spoiled for me and, while I definitely appreciate if someone warns me that giant spiders are going to eat the face of every main character, I usually try to avoid spoilers.

[calico-reaction.livejournal.com]

But saying "spoilers are bad" and "spoilers are wrong" seems very...I don't know, privileged?

How interesting. I totally get where you go with that, and I agree. Frankly, if someone is literally WANTING spoilers, for whatever reasons including the ones you list, I think that's fine. That's a private contract between the person who NEEDS/wants to be spoiled and the person delving out the info.

But the reason your comment made me do a double-take is because when I read Wendig's post and then a post from Lisa Manchev that sort of countered it, I came up with the realization that people telling spoiler-phobes to stay off the internet are very.... PRIVILEGED.

Because like you said, "not everyone can go to every opening night, watch every show the second it airs, read every book in ARC form three months before publication." And for those people who've already watched it and want to bombast their discussions all over facebook or twitter or whatnot to turn around and tell everyone else to stay off the internet, that's a load of privileged bull. Because being able to watch these things opening night, or the day it airs, or read/see it early is a privilege. So is having the internet, for that matter, but the internet and facebook and twitter and ALL THESE THINGS are such a regular, daily part of our lives (how many people have push notifications turned on, etc?) that being told to just stay off the internet is just..... gah! It'd be one thing if a person was visiting forums/websites on the very thing they don't want to be spoiled on and then getting MAD over seeing spoilers (in that case, staying away from those sites is a perfectly valid and logical comeback), but to just stay off the entire internet, when now even news publications seem to think that whether or not this character kissed that character on a television show is newsworthy? Come on.....

Anyway, I just totally took your point and ran in a completely opposite direction. I'm not arguing it at all: rather, I love your point, and it's a great angle I hadn't considered in the discussion on spoiler wars (which is, in and of itself, a privileged discussion). I don't like spoilers, but that doesn't mean if someone asks me for them specifically that I won't divulge. I've also asked for spoilers on occasion, not for triggery reasons so much as wanting to know if something is worth still investing in.

[sessifet25.livejournal.com]

I like that article. Well said. :)

[juglore.livejournal.com]

I have a phobia. It's better than it used to be. But it still causes sleepless nights sometimes. I hate it when someone drops a trigger into something just because they can. I had to stop playing video games. The designer's favorite trick "Oh, this is scary lets make them fight these. Now there's a whole level of these." I couldn't get my friends to vet the games for me because it wasn't memorable enough that they could tell. I'd get recommendations. "Oh this game is safe for you." It wasn't.

[sessifet25.livejournal.com]

I love you for writing this, because I've struggled with explaining to some people why I often seek out spoilers on my own, but don't appreciate it when they then take this as blanket permission to spoil away indiscriminately. I shall point them at this post from now on.

And to circle back to being kind or just well mannered: if I get spoiled for something we're watching together, because I actively looked when I could see which way the wind was blowing, looking at you Game of Thrones, I won't then turn around and spoil you unless I know it's one of your triggers.

[anderyn.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this. I have severe issues with some things in visual media (rape, threat of rape, any violent conflict between males/females, etc. etc. etc.) and I do seek out spoilers so that I can avoid feeling ooky for days/weeks after consuming same. I hate people who seem to think I'm less than because I actively seek said spoilers-- they think I'm ruining the pure experience of story. Well, sorry, but I'd rather KNOW what I'm paying for before I get a face full of something I can't deal with. And that's a bit sad, but I figure I experience the story my way, and it's okay.

I'm less triggered by words on paper, but I still check to be sure there are no uber-explicit attacks since I got blindsided by a mystery novel last year -- written by a woman, too, and just way too graphic.

[apocalypticbob.livejournal.com]

Oddly, I have also found that IMDB's Parent Guides pretty useful if I need to know if a movie has triggers before going. They aren't always there and accurate for the opening night of a movie, but for movies that have been out for a little bit, it's a good resource. My roommate has issues with rape portrayals, and a quick peek at it has enabled me to help her make informed decisions more than once.

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

I prefer that, because for me, spoilers are 90% of the thing that gets my interest in the first place. "So in episode 30 THIS neat thing happens..." sells me on something way more than "it's an adorable story of a girl and her pet dog who is actually the incarnation of a god of destruction sent to learn the importance of love!" ...Actually that description might sell me on something but most spoiler-free descriptions of things I love are "these characters are so adorable but I can't tell you why and they have to save the world but that's not important, there's such engaging stuff going on aaaaah." So all the spoiler-free reviews generally don't pique my interest. Like, one of the things that actually put the Toby books on my radar was someone mentioning that she spent a few years as a fish and I was like "wait WHAT? That sounds like my jam."

[ravynwitch.livejournal.com]

I recognize there is a statute of limitations. I work in a bookstore, I have had game of thrones spoiled for me. I expected it, and while I did go "Man, I haven't read them yet!" I didn't get that upset.
However, the night of the Walking Dead season finale, two of my twitter folks live-tweeted the show (with plot twists, death updates, etc.) I was at work during the show, and came home to read Twitter before bed (planning to watch the episode first thing the next morning simply because I didn't want it to be spoiled). One of the very first tweets I saw was a recap of the episode. It ruined basically all the twists in the episode for me. Both people got un-followed, but I couldn't take back that knowledge.
And even now I have tried to keep this as vague as possible because I don't know your lives and if you've seen it yet. I think it's the polite thing to do, along with adding "warning: spoilers for walking dead season finale" at the beginning if you are going to talk in-depth about things. It's just polite.
I guess I just wonder how hard it is to stop and ask "have you seen it yet?" Or add a spoiler tag at the beginning of text. For anything, really. Because yeah, Buffy has been out forever, but I still haven't watched the final season. Mostly because everyone spoils the final episode for me and I keep hoping I'll forget and then be able to watch it properly.

[rhoda-rants.livejournal.com]

Agreed on all points. With the caveat that something like "This movie has elements of X,Y,Z, so avoid if you're triggered by those things" is, in my mind, wildly different from something like, "Character X is brutally betrayed by Character Y in Scene W--and subplot A was a total bluff!" The latter is plot-centric and liable to derail people's expectations of the storyline, which--for people who don't like spoilers--can completely ruin any suspense that might've been had from a blind viewing. The former can be explained as a common courtesy without revealing anything about the plot whatsoever.

[rhodielady-47.livejournal.com]

"Because my desire not to put spoilers out into the world is not stronger than someone else's need for mental peace."
Bless you for having the kindness and decency to set his/her mind at ease. You'd be surprised at the numbers of callous people there are in the world who neither know nor care what life is like for the walking wounded.
BLESS YOU!
:}

[ravynwitch.livejournal.com]

Though it is worth noting that I try to warn friends without spoiling. "There is a incest/rape scene in the movie, wanted you to know before you get in the theatre" is different from "So it turns out character X is actually evil and then kidnaps Y....etc" I find there is usually a good way to do that and let people ask for details if they want/need more.

[beccastareyes]

Yes, that's a good point. I'll often point out things to my friends that I know are strong interests of theirs, or things they have fanned over in the past in other shows/books, which might be spoilery but are payoffs.

(I'm a bit worried now since I'm showing my friends Avatar: the Last Airbender, and the early episodes don't always show that there's Awesome Stuff later, even as they lay the groundwork for the characters. Then again, I've probably spoiled said friends on the thing before they had interest in watching it.)

[pusifoot.livejournal.com]

My phobia is eight-legged "angry mosquitoes" as my husband calls them. They are EVERYWHERE in gaming. I have joked that if a game designer of a fantasy game ever made a game that didn't include those creatures as a monster-type, I'd play the heck out of that game and send the designers huge tokens of thanks.

It's not happened yet though :(

[reedrover]

Thank you very much for this food for thought. a little loss of surprise is worth it for the comfort of knowing a piece of media is safe is how I function, but I didn't take it to a wider contemplation of how other people view spoilers, for good or ill. I especially appreciate your introduction of another form of privilege into the conversation, as it also puts a different angle/color/entry point on the concept of responsibility and expectations, both as the giver and as the receiver of information.

[archangelbeth]

I was about to say that LotRO didn't have those... But they kind of do, come to think of it. I'm just not ever able to see them clearly because it's always razzinfrazzin NIGHT, it seems, when I log on. So I just see a sort of buggy blur and a nametag, and then I kill it and it vanishes. And it's got spiders. So. Many. Spiders.

EverQuest was full of giant skeeters. Ground sooooo maaaany of them...

WoW is... hm. it's got flying bugs, I know, though they mostly aren't mosquito-like. Waspoid (which may be close enough to bug you) and beetle-like. It is freakin' full of spiders, though. (And then there's the time my character came 'round a bend and there's THIS GIANT LEG TWICE AS TALL AS MY TALL CHARACTER AHHHHHH. ...I killed it, but mostly with a lot of ranged attacks and wailing, "Don't come over here! Don't touch me! Die die die die DIIIEEEE!" ...I don't like spiders. I am fortunate that I am mostly kind of okay with the pixel kinds, though I wind up going DIE DIE DIE DIE a lot at them.)

Haven't played Star Wars or Star Trek online, nor am I in the Elder Scrolls beta, so I cannot speak to those. O:(

Condolences! I wish I knew of a game that didn't go, "Yay, bugs! Everyone likes killing bugs!"