Accidents are harder than you think: harassment and all of us.

[seanan_mcguire]

So we're talking a lot about harassment in the science fiction and fantasy community right now, and that's a good thing: that's a thing that really needs to happen. Much of the conversation has centered on sexual harassment, but it has also touched on racial harassment, religious harassment, social harassment, and plain ol' bullying. John Scalzi has put forth a convention harassment policy policy (not as redundant as it sounds), and a lot of people have co-signed to indicate that they, too, will refrain from attending conventions without good, public anti-harassment policies. Sounds good, right? I mean, "play nicely with the other children" is the building block of most people's educations, and none of us wakes up in the morning thinking "I'm gonna harass somebody today."

(Well. Maybe some people do. And fuck them.)

But as always happens when this conversation gets started, some people are standing up and shouting "THOUGHT POLICE!" and "Well I don't want to go to a convention where wearing a T-shirt could get me banned for harassment."

Oh, honey lambs, I'm sorry the world is so hard. Let's talk about harassment a little more, shall we? Wikipedia (which is not the most 100% reputable source, but is easy to copy and paste) defines "harassment" as "behavior intended to disturb or upset, and it is characteristically repetitive." It goes on to say that "In the legal sense, it is intentional behavior which is found threatening or disturbing. Sexual harassment refers to persistent and unwanted sexual advances."

Intentional. Intended. Persistent. What does each of these words mean? Let's look at definitions taken from real world experiences.

Intentional. If you run up to me in a public place and scream "I'M GOING TO RAPE YOU, YOU FAT BITCH!", you are harassing me. It only took one sentence to cross that line! Why is that? Well, because a specific threat was made, and even if there was no intent to actually cause physical harm, anyone who makes that statement clearly intended to disturb and upset me. This is harassment, and yeah, it's probably going to lead to my making a report to convention staff, and no, I'm not going to feel bad if someone gets kicked out because of it.

On the other hand, what if I'm just walking through the convention lobby and I hear some guys making dirty jokes in the corner? Is that harassment? No. It's in poor taste, but it's not harassment. I may still say something to convention staff, because most cons include children, and public space is not the place to be crossing certain lines.

Intended. But what happens if, after I tell convention staff "Hey, those guys over there are telling dirty jokes loudly in the lobby, maybe it would be a good idea for them to stop" those same people figure out that I was the one who reported them and spend the rest of the day following me around the hotel, telling dirty jokes loudly to try and get a rise out of me? What if, say, they follow me into my panels and ask questions that are really set-ups for filthy punchlines? Is that harassment?

Yeah. They intended to upset me. They wanted me to feel unsafe and unwelcome, and they did a very good job of it. But what if it was a T-shirt that made me go "ew," and not a bunch of joke-tellers? Well, if the convention doesn't have a "clean language" policy (which some cons with lots of underage attendees do have: they want Grandma to be able to look around the lobby and feel like little Timmy is safe), that's not harassment. Hell, even if there is a "clean language" policy, it's not harassment, it's just a rule violation. Running into the person in the inappropriate-to-me shirt several times over the course of the day is not harassment, it's happenstance.

I have seen costumed individuals harass people with their attire. The most upsetting incident involved someone in a bikini and bodypaint trying to force an individual whose religion forbade him to stare at uncovered women to look at her. Was the man committing religious oppression or harassment? No. He never said, at least in my hearing, that she needed to cover up her sinful, sinful body. He just didn't look at her. Was the woman committing harassment? Yes. But look at her actions: she intended to do what she did. It was intentional. Lots of women wearing as little or less walked by, and none of them were harassing him with their presence. Just the one who was yelling and touching his arms and generally being intentionally problematic.

Persistent. I've seen several people say that anti-harassment policies are the end of convention hook-ups and no geeks will ever get dates again oh noes we're going to die out. And that's where persistent comes to the party.

"Hey, you're nice, wanna have coffee?"
"No."

Not harassment!

"That dress could make a good dog break his leash."
"Crude but points for The West Wing reference."

Probably not harassment!

"Wanna fuck?"
"No."

Maybe harassment, maybe not, depending on what came before it.

"You're hot."
"Thanks, I'm with someone."
"Aw baby don't be like that."
"Please excuse me."
"Your ass is just...mmm."
"I'd really like to go over there."
"I'll come with you baby."

Harassment! Look: no one is saying "don't ask people out" or "never talk to a person you find attractive again." We're saying "no means no." We're saying "if she's trying to get away from you, let her." We're saying "if you follow him through the hotel, you are being inappropriate." We're saying "unless I have asked you to touch me, touching me is not appropriate."

Studies have shown that people are much better at picking up on "no" than they want to admit, because admitting it would mean acknowledging it. So learn to pick up on "no," both verbally and non-verbally. Watch body language. Back off. Listen.

Having a bawdy song filk circle is not harassment: it's in the program book, it's labeled, and anyone who comes to that circle and gets offended by the circle in general is looking to get upset. Singing a dirty song during open filk while staring at the girl who says she's uncomfortable with that sort of thing and going "Ha ha Olga's probably pretty turned on" is harassment. You have singled her out. You are making an intentional choice. You are persisting.

Cat and I do this panel called "In Conversation" that's sort of like "An Evening With Kevin Smith" with more boobs. We always provide a program book description that says, flat out, that we will swear, that we will answer all questions, that no topics are off the table. So no, you don't get to attend our panel and then say we harassed you with our swearing. But if we have that same conversation in the lobby, and won't stop, and get louder when asked to stop, you are right to involve the convention staff. You have a right to feel safe. You have a right to be allowed to participate freely in your community.

I've used "you" throughout this post both to avoid gendering the subject, and to make this point: If you, the reader, think that a convention where you can be asked not to make rape jokes at panelists, not to lay hands on people who have asked you (either aloud or with their actions) to leave them alone, and to treat everyone else as a human being who has a right to the ball, if you think that this convention sounds like political correctness gone awry and something you want no part in, good.

Stay home.

Comments

[vulpine137.livejournal.com]

I have a question, and I really hope it comes out right.

Say I (cis hetro male) see a person I do not know personally at a 'con who I find attractive, either due to costume choice (cute Cthulhu Cultist?) or
general matches what I consider as my type.

My assumption is, that there's a scale of appreciation that goes from safe, to creepy, to dangerous. What I'm not sure, and I know I can't really be sure given I don't know the person in question, is how to know when to draw the line.

My thought is this.

Mental appreciation: Thinking to myself she is pretty.
Quiet comment to 3rd party: "she's pretty/cute/tentacled".
Direct comment: "Hi, I like your costume, those elder signs are detailed"
Direct comment + camera: "Hi, I like your robes...may I take a picture of you ?"
Direct comment with intent to communicate in more detail: I really don't have an example, I suck at this part.

I know that no means no, and if told so to just excuse myself politely and leave her alone. (though if she's telepathic and says no to the mental appreciation I may move a tad quicker away).

I guess, what I'm asking...what would be considered the safe side of polite ?

(My usual 'con practice is either 1 or 2, with a very rare 3. Mostly due to shyness and not wanting to be 'that guy'.)

[maladaptive.livejournal.com]

IME, "that guy" never asks "may I take a picture of you" and then accepts "no" as an answer. Maybe about 30% will ask and ignore the answer (or not even wait for the answer), and 70% will just either take pictures or walk up to you and have a buddy take pictures of the two of you together. Or he'll jump in your space and do a selfie with you.

[black-rider.livejournal.com]

When there are obviously a handful or more people standing around waiting to take pictures with cosplayer Z, do they each need to ask permission, or is it just sorta a given that Z is taking pictures now, hurry on through so everyone gets their turn?

(Let's assume for personal snaps, which, granted, with the internet are not so personal anymore, but they wouldn't have any weird copyright / profit / etc issues going on.)

[windtear.livejournal.com]

I personally always ask. Just because other people are snapping doesn't always mean it's open slather; they could be friends. And I've never met anyone who was offended by being asked. It probably helped that the one time I was refused I said, "Okay, thanks anyway," and wandered off.

[black-rider.livejournal.com]

Also, is there now an etiquette for taking pictures from a distance, ie, across the aisle of that great costume that's walking by? Or when, like at say SDCC, a cosplayer poses for one person and fifteen more grab their cameras?

[wendyzski.livejournal.com]

If people are standing around waiting to take photos with cosplayer Z, and you'd like to get one as well, Go stand there. If Z looks at you, ask "may I?" or at least hold up your camera with an inquisitive look.

Across the aisles - legally yes, in public spaces you can't be prevented from taking photos of other people.
That said, said cosplayer has probably put a lot of work into their outfit and that probably includes working out poses that present the character and their body in the most flattering light. It's respectful to allow them to choose how they wil be photographed.

[beccastareyes]

I can only speak for myself, but when I am in costume at a con, I expect people to engage me because of my costume. So a direct comment or a picture request would not be unwelcome, provided it occurs at an appropriate time. (Aka not during a panel, or when I am speed-walking to somewhere, or trying to talk to me during a group photo, and no photo requests while I'm in stairwells, bathrooms, and other places where I'm focusing on something.)

In general, a public place and approaching in a way that leaves the costumer room to back off if you turn out to be a creep is a good bet as to 'when'.

[azurelunatic]

My thoughts are complicated but I will try to articulate them. (also, hi! It's been a while, and I hope you're doing well.)

I am a person (gq bi geekfemme) who is capable of *really focused attention* without realizing it. This can unnerve people, and I don't like making people uncomfortable; when I realize I've made someone uncomfortable, I back off (and apologize if I think that wouldn't make things worse); I have been learning to pay better attention to social signals that indicate the other party is uncomfortable without them saying so directly.

It's *really* hard to accidentally cross the line in just one direct comment. It takes work. "Hi, I like your robes, I feel we have a special psychic connection and you are my new muse, I worship the ground you walk on, I want you to enter eternal marriage with me?" would cross it; that is way too much engagement for an introduction. "Hi, I like your tentacles, would you like to get coffee sometime?" is probably too fast; save that for a few minutes in (provided all goes well).

The other side of that is the "too slow" Nice Guy^TM approach, where the Nice Guy (sometimes out of fear of coming on too strong/too fast, or sometimes out of fear of hearing a "no") leaves the "and I think you're very pretty" for months/years. (And then gets cranky when she says "yes" to other guys who have been more direct.)

I also think your assumption of there being a scale of appreciation and crossing a point on it is inherently crossing a problematic line, is incorrect.

The correct scale where one end is danger is a willingness to accept and honor a "no" or "slow down", even an implicit one. (It is possible to be too far on the side of "oh, that is a 'no' signal, I'll withdraw" to a point that hurts the other party's feelings, for example where a first "not now" gets interpreted as a "not ever", but generally erring in that direction only risks missed opportunities.) But since really intense attention is often correlated with not heeding "no" signals, it's an understandable confusion/understandable to take intense attention as a warning.

[azurelunatic]

(ack, sorry for the double-comment)

[sweetmusic-27.livejournal.com]

[This got long. Sorry!] Speaking as a cis bi woman with amazing boobs, I'm gonna say that to me, the best appreciation is honest, upbeat, and brief. Smile, look up and say it to her face, let her say 'thanks' or nod or smile back, and walk away.

These aren't perfect compliments, but they fit those criteria:

"Wow, you look amazing!"
"Is that a < company X > robe or did you make it? It looks great on you!"
"Whoa, those are...um. You look, uh... very nice!"
"Daaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmnn. Well. Done."

It can be sort of a triangle, too, where the best compliments meet in the middle. Be honest but upbeat - if her costume has a flaw, don't mention it, instead, say something true about about a good part of it. Being critical might seem like you're negging (http://xkcd.com/1027/) or something. Be upbeat but brief - don't go on for more than thirty seconds or two questions if you can help it. Don't make her look for an escape route. Be upbeat but honest - don't say she's wearing the absolute best Lovecraftian costume you've ever seen in the entire world. Compliments that ring fulsomely false, well. They feel bad or weird.

Like other commenters and the post above have said, it really is pretty hard to cross the line unintentionally so long as you're willing to keep it short and take 'no' for an answer.

Admittedly, "Can I touch those," or touching that is anything other than a handshake could take it there.

Saying something like, "You look like you're trying to tempt me, and I'm a married man, you bad, bad girl," begins to cross the line from playful into "Your clothes say you're asking for it" territory.

"Whoa, your robes remind me of the Call of Cthulhu game we played where I played an investigator and I lost a lot of SAN points but barely hung on. I made it to level x through a series of hilarious dice rolls, and I'm now going to tell you all about them," is less creepy and more, um, no.

Thank you for asking before taking a photograph! If you're planning on posting your photos to the internet, it's good to let your intended subject know. "Hey, I'm part of a Flickr group that posts cosplay photos/I have a convention photos website/I write up conreps with hall photos in my posts. Would it be okay to share that there?" If you just wanna take a photo 'cause she looks neat, great. You don't have to warn her about anything, just ask.

If you want to compliment with the intent of carrying the conversation further, stick with:

--one or two questions ("Have you ever read the Laundry series by Charles Stross"/"Thinking of going to the Shoggothmania panel tonight?"/"I bet you've already heard this, but the H.P. Lovecraft Literary Podcast is great, and they had an episode where they talked about the story I think that costume is from!),

--exchanging contact info ("Do you have a... card or something?"/"Are you on Twitter?"), or

--maybe planning to meet at a group event/panel ("I'm hosting the Cthulhu Fhtagn party tonight! Come check out the insanity shot!").

If she's dressed up, in a costume or whatever, odds are good that she has schedule for getting out of it, which is why you should be focused on disengaging pronto. If all you manage to do is compliment and run, there's a decent chance she'll remember you later with positive feelings, especially now that she can breathe/walk/gesture without her sleeves getting in her face.

...that was a lot. Did any of that help?

[stormsdotter.livejournal.com]

I second all of this.

As a costumer and cosplayer, I really appreciate it when people notice details of what I'm wearing and feel very comfortable starting a conversation on this.

And as someone who is just stepping back into the dating pool, I've noticed that the quickest turn-off is for someone to compliment my looks. It makes me feel horribly objectified and uncomfortable, especially since it's just a quirk of genetics.

Complimenting a thing I have made and thus spent time and energy creating feels much more like you appreciate me, and not the package I happen to come in.

I hope this all makes sense. Most importantly, thank you for asking!

[tereshkova2001.livejournal.com]

As another costumer, I second this. Compliments on the dress/uniform/whatever are nicer than "you look like Sigourney Weaver, well done for picking one of her characters to dress as". (Particularly since I've never been told that unless I'm dressed as Ripley.)

[black-rider.livejournal.com]

"I think your costume is really great, I would maybe like to chat with you about [thing], maybe we can meet up sometime during the con, here is my cellphone/email address" is a pretty good default.

If the person you're approaching is interested in talking to you, she might offer to meet you at a specific time for a cup of coffee, or will offer to let you attend the next panel with her so you can chat in line... Or maybe she'll smile and nod and say thank you, quietly tucking your business card into her purse and forgetting about it forever, and you're out nothing but a business card. Either way it's pretty painless for everyone involved.


Exception: Do not ask someone to talk about a business thing if all you want is an opportunity to get to know them personally. It is annoying and a waste of everyone's time.

If you want to do business with someone you're keen on, please be completely professional until your business is completed, and then, when they are not relying on you for a product or service (including advice or introductions to important people), you can do the "Hey I think you're neat, coffee?" trick.

[sylviamcivers.livejournal.com]

"May I take pix of your costume" while ogling intricate stichery - flattering.
"May I take pix of your costume" while ogling body parts - not flattering.

The costumer can tell the difference, 99.999999% of the time.

[naomikritzer]

I spent this past weekend at Convergence, admiring costumes and taking pictures of random people all weekend. I don't usually wear costumes to Convergence but my daughter does and so does my sister.

I think you're really unlikely to be creepy by accident when admiring a cosplayer's costume. I mean, it is certainly possible but I really think it requires a fair amount of effort. If you're admiring the costume for its details and coolness or because they're really a dead ringer for the character or any of that, you're on pretty safe ground. A big grin and, "that is an AWESOME costume!" is almost never going to be taken the wrong way unless, say, you're really openly leering at someone's rack while you say it.

With pictures, I think the main thing is to use some common sense, like, if they're obviously on their way somewhere, maybe give it a rest? If they're blocking the stairs where they're standing, maybe let them keep moving? If they're eating dinner, maybe let them eat?

[johnpalmer.livejournal.com]

As a nervous-ish person, I learned that the best thing I could do was watch a person's face for signs of distress, and simply pay attention. In spite of my fears, most people were perfectly fine, and there's a funny kind of pride in recognizing that a person is bothered by a bit of flirtation. "Oh, damn it, she doesn't like me - oh, cool, I realized that!")

Alas, this is one of those things; the only way to learn that you can't recognize mild signs of distress is to fail to do so a few times. So it's typically best to risk flubbing in minor things, like "can I take your picture" or asking someone to join you for coffee or lunch, rather than in really big and major things, like sex, or dinner. That way you can learn whether you're the kind of person who misses those cues without causing any major problems.

But the huge majority of people *do* catch minor cues, once they learn to pay attention. It can be hard to learn this - sometimes people who are shy find faces and eyes to be a bit of sensory overload at times (especially at first), but most people can learn to handle it with experience. (I've heard that not everyone can - but I also know of people who found it overwhelming at first, and then had it get better.)

[seanan-mcguire.livejournal.com]

I think you've had some excellent answers. Really, though, if you're polite, friendly, and not pushing when she gives you the "please stop" sign, you're a lot less likely to be creepy. If what you want is a possible friendship/conversation, and not just a momento of a pretty person, #3 may be your best bet. It shows a common interest without going "YOU FAKE GEEK YOU," and it provides an opening for conversation to happen.

[evilrooster.livejournal.com]

Not to derail, but I'm sure you also know not to go down the "test for fake geek girl" route. It isn't harassing, but it's not charming either.